How the Nuxalk Nation Is Working with UBC’s Museum of Anthropology to Host the First-Ever Exhibit of Their People

00:01:31:09 – 00:01:58:13 

Clyde 

Yaw, Smatmcuks [Greetings Friends and Relatives], nts ta Snxakila. Greetings, everyone. It’s good to be here with you all. My name is Snxakila. It’s how you pronounce my Nuxalk name, Snxakila. And, I come from the Nuxalk Nation. From the Talyuumc territory. Nuxalk’s made up of four main territories, but we’re a one nation town today, or a one reserve town. 

00:01:58:14 – 00:02:25:06 

Clyde 

I guess a little bit about my background is:  I was raised by my mother’s parents. My grandparents, my Nuxalk grandparents,  Roger and Gloria Tallio And, they were, they are commercial fishermen and, you know, very traditional in, you know, especially with 

00:02:25:07 – 00:02:38:06 

Clyde 

using the territory, you know, going out on the inlets, growing up fishing with them, you know, going out and to the, up top, cutting wood, you know, so I got to grow up, you know, hunting trips. 

00:02:38:06 – 00:03:00:17 

Clyde 

I got to grow up, you know, really with that, that older generation of, ​​Nuxalkmc [Nuxalk people] which, when we look at that generation there, they’re so strong, such strong people. My grandparents are in their 80s now, and, you know, this summer, my grandma was was chucking fish, deck handing while they were out, you know, commercial fishing. 

00:03:00:19 – 00:03:28:03 

Clyde 

So, you know, really strong people that, gave me a good foundation. And, you know, when you think about what they experienced in their in their, you know, growing up and just their experience, to be able to make that decision, very early in their lives that they wanted to raise their children differently. And then having a opportunity to raise me, I kind of got sort of the best of it. 

00:03:28:03 – 00:03:59:01 

Clyde 

I think, you know, my, my mom and her siblings got to grow up, you know, raise my grandparents. And then by the time I came along, they were so ready for me. And so a real foundation, I think, was set with that stability. And, you know, just being very proud of where we come from. But also they they’re very humble people, you know, they’re not the type of people to, to boast about, about anything really, but, hardworking, humble, very, very compassionate and, connected. 

00:03:59:06 – 00:04:24:11 

Clyde 

So that was my, my foundation. And then, I ended up leaving Bella Coola in my teen years, moved to Victoria with my mom. We had a tragedy in the family. My my brother had died, and so we decided to, go and live in Victoria. And that’s where I really got sort of a experience, right? 

00:04:24:11 – 00:04:42:05 

Clyde 

Of, like, seeing multiculturalism, seeing other Indigenous peoples, you know, doing really great things with, with language and other stuff. So that then inspired me to kind of move home. So I went back home for my, my grade 12 year. Started 

00:04:42:05 – 00:04:48:02 

Clyde 

in the school with the language programs within like a couple of months, I exhausted all their materials. 

00:04:48:02 – 00:05:11:10 

Clyde 

So the language teacher brought me to the elders’ classes, got an after school job there, recording elders, and then, when time came to, starting to prepare for university, the two elders that were our, our language champions, Clarence and Beatrice Elliott, they worked in our school for 30 years, you know, teaching language. 

00:05:11:11 – 00:05:32:00 

Clyde 

During that the, the 80s, when our, people, you know, really fought for having our own school. And then by ‘87, the school was open. We call it ​​ Acwsalcta [Place of Learning], a place of learning. And it was a place where we can, you know, learn our culture, our language, along with, the the standard, BC curriculum. 

00:05:32:02 – 00:05:51:07 

Clyde 

Really focus on that best of both worlds kind of, kind of thing. So I, decided, you know, when I sat down, they sat me down one day and, you know, said, okay, you know, you can go to university. That’s fine. But if you stay, we will, put you through, a training to ​​become an Alkw [Speaker] 

00:05:51:12 – 00:06:13:03 

Clyde 

An Alkw is, my, my ranking title at home. It’s a potlatch speaker. And so they say it’ll be five years. And, you know, they would bring together elders to help train me. And that if I went to university, that would be fine. But they said, remember, the elders might not be here when you get back. So I had to make that decision. 

00:06:13:05 – 00:06:34:11 

Clyde 

Stay with the elders and do my training or go off to university. I then, you know, decided that I’m not going to get that education anywhere else but at home. So I stayed, did my training, completed it. And lucky I did, because the year after, which would have been if I did go to university the year I would have returned home. 

00:06:34:13 – 00:07:00:11 

Clyde 

My my my mentor, Clarence Elliott, had passed away, so I got to work with 15 elders, that they had, brought together to train me rotating each day, being able to learn different dialects of the language, the customs, the history, the family trees. And then at the same time, they started to, put me into teaching at our school, at ​​Acwsalcta. 

00:07:00:13 – 00:07:23:00 

Clyde 

So then, I worked on, getting my independent teaching, certificate at the same time and, spent seven years there, which, that’s where Jennifer and I, then met after that. One of my elders that was, working with Jennifer had, I think she had a broken ankle or something and couldn’t, couldn’t make it. 

00:07:23:00 – 00:07:30:07 

Clyde 

So they sent me in and, in her place and, it’s been, what, 16 years now? 15 years. 

00:07:30:09 – 00:07:31:05 

Jennifer 

16 almost 17 now. 

00:07:31:07 – 00:07:33:21 

Clyde 

16 years. We’ve been able to do a lot of great stuff. 

00:07:34:00 – 00:07:37:07 

Jennifer 

Exactly 16 years because. 

00:07:37:07 – 00:07:38:06 

Clyde 

Yeah. Because you were pregnant. 

00:07:38:12 – 00:07:39:18 

Jennifer 

Yeah. because Audrey turns 17 and. 

00:07:39:19 – 00:08:06:09 

Clyde 

Yeah. There you go. So yeah, we’ve been able to travel, many different museums throughout North America to do this work and this research and start to bring those pieces back, connecting them back to the community. So I really think, like our exhibit, you know, Nuxalk Strong really started back then. We might not have been aware of it yet, but I do remember back then we even even just dreaming, like, wouldn’t it be cool to do this? 

00:08:06:11 – 00:08:40:23 

Clyde 

And then, after all that time, it finally came into into existence, and now we have Nuxalk Strong. But yeah, that’s a little bit about my background. It’s kind of a it’s been two decades now that I’ve been working in culture and doing this work. So been able to have a lot of great experiences, do a lot of really interesting things, meet a lot of really awesome people and, be able to, Nuyalcalhlayc [clear that path] you know, clear that path for those that will will come after us to, to be able to bring that next level. 

00:08:41:01 – 00:09:08:05 

Clyde 

That’s, one of our Nuxalk teachings is that we’re always, clearing that path, you know, acknowledging the path that’s been cleared for us, the opportunities that have been presented to us and then being able to give back and do the same. And as we do this, each generation, becomes ​​??? you know, they, they gain that knowledge and experience, to be able to achieve what we call ​​ Stl’mstaliwa [the full human experience]. 

00:09:08:07 – 00:09:15:08 

Clyde 

And that’s also one of our main themes in the exhibit. But yeah, that’s, a little bit about me. Way [That is all]​.​ 

00:09:15:08 – 00:09:17:04 

Oliver 

Jennifer, do you want to do a bit of intro? 

00:09:17:08 – 00:09:46:07 

Jennifer 

Yes. Thanks for inviting me to this. I agree that a conversation is is the best way to talk about such a rich set of relationships and experiences that Snxakila–Clyde and Jacob and Emily and I have done together and beyond. So my name is Jennifer Kramer. I’m originally, from the United States, from New York City. 

00:09:46:09 – 00:10:02:20 

Jennifer 

And I had the incredible luck and gift to fly from the Bronx to the Nuxalk Nation in Bella Coola, to work with that nation and learn and spend time there starting in the mid 1990s. And so, 

00:10:02:20 – 00:10:12:15 

Jennifer 

yeah, I went out to Bella Coola, and I never went back to the United States to live again. And I’m now, 30 years later, a happy citizen of Canada. 

00:10:12:15 – 00:10:43:03 

Jennifer 

And being able to show some of what I’ve been privileged to learn about from ​​Nuxalkmc Elders, teachers, teachers like Karen Anderson, whom Clyde spoke about previously. Has been so wonderful. And I’m, I guess I should say, I am a curator at the Museum of Anthropology at UBC, and I’m also an associate professor of cultural anthropology here at UBC. 

00:10:43:03 – 00:10:58:19 

Emily 

My name is Emily Jean Leischner. I am talking to you all today from ​​Lenapehoking, which is the traditional, ancestral and contemporary homelands of, Lenape people, often in Philadelphia, in Pennsylvania, in the United States. 

00:10:58:21 – 00:11:26:14 

Emily 

I am, not Indigenous. I am a settler with, oh, gosh, family from all sorts of mass of European backgrounds. My relatives were frontier farmers in the States, and they sort of made their way, across the Midwest of the United States, as, the U.S was violently like pushing out Indigenous nations from their territories. 

00:11:26:16 – 00:11:58:01 

Emily 

So I kind of got involved in the work that we’re doing by kind of learning about my own family history at the same time as I was working for museums. Here in Philadelphia. And it was thinking about this connection between this, like, personal connection between the legacies of colonialism. But, my family has benefited from and the ways that contemporary museums have also, are reckoning with these legacies of colonialism and trying to do better. 

00:11:58:03 – 00:12:29:06 

Emily 

And so I decided to go back to grad school and ended up at UBC, because I was really interested in speaking with and working with Indigenous communities to better understand how museums and archives and libraries and any institution that hold, Indigenous knowledge and heritage can do better. Can make those materials, either return them or, make them accountable to the peoples whose histories and stories they’re holding. 

00:12:29:08 – 00:12:35:14 

Emily 

And so I, was fortunate enough to get, paired with Jennifer, and got introduced 

00:12:35:14 – 00:13:09:03 

Emily 

to Snxakila and members of Nuxalk Ancestral Governance Office as a graduate student. I first started working with the nation in 2016, I think. So it’s been, yeah, almost, almost a decade. I did, my master’s work, and this CUES grant that we’re going to be talking about, also overlapped with, my dissertation, fieldwork, which I was a community-based project that I did with, members of the nation as well. 

00:13:09:05 – 00:13:36:04 

Emily 

So it’s really fun. Now, as I’m, my dissertation is over, I’m now, like, a postdoctoral fellow. I’m really grateful to have had the opportunity to continue working with the nation on a bunch of, projects that have, like, grown out of this grant, one of the things that was really lovely about kind of reflecting on this project, is that our, relationships and works work together preceded this grant. 

00:13:36:04 – 00:14:01:08 

Emily 

And then we had all these big plans and ideas for what we could do together, and it kind of exploded out into a million different directions. And so it’s been really, yeah, it’s been really rewarding to reflect on how many different wonderful things we’ve all been able to be a part of and what’s the like, flexibility and like support of this CUES 

00:14:01:08 – 00:14:21:18 

Emily 

grant has been able to like, provide for us as like a team, that works very iteratively and very, creatively based on what, you know, needs are happening in the nation. And how we can, as non-Indigenous scholars, can support those needs. Yeah. That’s a bit about me. 

00:14:21:17 – 00:14:24:05 

Oliver 

so exciting that you can join us all the way from Philadelphia. 

00:14:24:05 – 00:14:24:22 

Oliver 

why don’t we just, 

00:14:24:23 – 00:14:28:07 

Oliver 

go to just everybody doing a round of what their specific role was 

00:14:28:07 – 00:14:29:04 

Oliver 

in the project. 

00:14:29:03 – 00:14:32:10 

Jennifer 

I think Emily’s explanation of 

00:14:32:11 – 00:14:42:05 

Jennifer 

the wonderful CUES Grant being iterative and flexible and how it sort of exploded outward, one of the things that all three of us, 

00:14:42:05 – 00:14:54:04 

Jennifer 

have expressed is that one project flows into another, flows into another, and grants usually have these nice, neat boundaries with deliverables and objectives that are very set. 

00:14:54:06 – 00:15:13:02 

Jennifer 

And what was so wonderful about CUES was that, first of all, the funding went to the nation, which completely changes the relationship. Instead of going through the Behavioural Research Ethics Board at UBC, we went through Nuxalk Protocol for doing research with the nation. 

00:15:13:03 – 00:15:37:06 

Jennifer 

But that this fact that it became this outpouring in so many different directions, the original goals had been to work more in depth with community members about how they saw a Nuxalk type [of] keeping space for material treasures that would come home in the future, and what that would look like and whether people were interested. 

00:15:37:08 – 00:16:02:06 

Jennifer 

And then the second goal was creating a representation of the Nuxalk Nation with the Nuxalk about how they would like to share who they are and and their future goals with the world at the Museum of Anthropology. The the museum is still in process, the keeping space. But it’s there. And I actually would say that the exhibit, 

00:16:02:06 – 00:16:30:04 

Jennifer 

so my specific role, I guess my directive was getting to be a co-curator to create Nuxalk Strong: Dancing down the eyelashes of the sun. And we didn’t know that was going to happen, when we applied for this grant. But it was, I mean, with Covid and with the seismic upgrade of the Museum of Anthropology’s Great Hall, things got extended so that the exhibit only opened in February 2025. 

00:16:30:04 – 00:16:58:11 

Jennifer 

But that was wonderful because it meant that every time we went back to the nation and we talked to the community and shared the work we were doing, whether it was treasures, Nuxalk treasures that we had visited in museums, whether it was conferences that we had presented at about our work, whether it was Emily’s sharing about her doctoral dissertation or her postdoctoral work on co stewarding, Nuxalk knowledge that’s at the American Philosophical Society in Philadelphia. 

00:16:58:17 – 00:17:22:02 

Jennifer 

We could kind of bring that back, share it with the community, whether it was repatriation work that was ongoing, that was happening with the nation, and they could respond. And it went back into the exhibit. So sorry. Again, you’ll find that none of our answers are short, because everything folds into everything else. But at least the exhibit was a wonderful kind of. 

00:17:22:04 – 00:17:32:19 

Jennifer 

even though it’s been our goal for so long, I see it just as a marker moment of where all these different, vitality and resurgences are happening for the nation. 

00:17:32:19 – 00:17:37:19 

Jennifer 

What what do you see as your role? I’d love to hear that. 

00:17:37:19 – 00:17:50:02 

Clyde 

Maybe Emily can, talk a bit first, let me, My answer is going to be a bit long, so let let’s Emily jump in for a second. 

00:17:50:04 – 00:18:16:22 

Emily 

Yeah. I think, yeah, I, I definitely resonate with the feeling that describing my role in the project was kind of an ever changing, marker. That really, fortunately, was able to just shift depending on, like, what our needs were. You know, we, initially, my part of my role was, you know, helping to get the grant together. 

00:18:16:22 – 00:18:48:12 

Emily 

I was a PhD student at the time. And so, and looking to do, a community-based project with the nation that would require, visiting, being in person, talking to people. When I say I wanted to do a community-based project on what that meant for me was that I wanted the, what we were writing, what I was going to write about, and what, materially was going to come out of the work, to happen in discussion with, with Jennifer and with Nuxalk collaborators. 

00:18:48:14 – 00:19:18:19 

Emily 

And so that meant that, you know, it wasn’t as it wasn’t as easy as saying, “oh, I’m going to study x, y, z, and then I’m going to, you know, write about it” like instead we wanted the community facing work to come first. We wanted the impacts. And what, mattered for the nation to be first. And then I, as a student, was going to figure out academically, like how to, you know, write something about that that would, like, also contribute to the work of the nation and would kind of describe what we what we had been working on. 

00:19:18:21 – 00:19:32:10 

Emily 

And so a lot of my role, there’s, there’s a lot of it that’s like very administrative. I took notes that all of the meetings that we were at, I like recorded things. I set up food, you know, like when you’re doing community work, like 

00:19:32:10 – 00:19:34:08 

Emily 

there’s just a lot of flexibility with what you’re doing. 

00:19:34:08 – 00:20:05:03 

Emily 

Right? Like setting meetings, like hanging out with people. And that was truly, like, the best. The best part about it. And then as, like, the project changed over time, we added kind of new roles, you know, like, I ended up helping out a lot more. Not as a co-curator, but, as helping talk to, Nuxalk artists about the exhibit, and thinking about, like, all right, how who might want to be involved and how could we involve them, and doing a lot of, 

00:20:05:05 – 00:20:19:01 

Emily 

Yeah, like collaborative, like brainstorming together. So it was really. Yeah, it was probably the most fun, thing that I’ve gotten to do so far in my life. And one of the most, like, meaningful. 

00:20:19:01 – 00:20:47:05 

Clyde 

So one of the, I think observations, too, that I’ve been able to, to make, you know, over the, over the years is that, these projects, the this work that we’ve done together have all been a part of, you know, something that even started before our involvement, you know, you could really like our history. It’s interesting. 

00:20:47:05 – 00:21:31:08 

Clyde 

Nuxalk is a really interesting story that that I think the, you know, just the world doesn’t, doesn’t know our story. And it’s it’s a story that almost, you know, never wouldn’t, wouldn’t have been known. You know, we were so close, to being completely wiped out as a people. You know, I just a little bit of history, you know, in 1862, Nuxalk and the rest of of the coast and interior suffered the, intentional spreading of smallpox into the territory, you know, by British, by Canadians, with the purpose of wiping us out and getting us out of the way, getting our ancestors out of the 

00:21:31:08 – 00:22:20:03 

Clyde 

way. So settlers had access to the gold in the interior, access to all of the rich resources within our territory, without having to share that with the people or be accountable to to the nations that, that that Canada’s bulldozing over to create its existence. And, you know, sometimes in that sense, like, I always like to think that, I’m not like to think, but, you know, it really shows how much we’ve been able to contribute, to, you know, the modern day today, just in Nuxalk alone, if you were to look at, you know, the hundred plus years of resource extraction, you know, in timber, in salmon, in mushrooms that have 

00:22:20:03 – 00:22:47:05 

Clyde 

been just taken from our lands and that wealth went to build Canada. You know, that’s part of it. A lot of the contributions that, our nations on the coast, have made was, was something that we weren’t even a part of, and none of that return really came to us. And, so the smallpox comes along, you know, it’s brought into our territory. 

00:22:47:05 – 00:23:28:10 

Clyde 

We know this. And we’ve for years, even, getting that history out there has been tough. It’s it wasn’t documented. It was done very secretively. And, it took a white guy writing some books to finally bring it to that level where, the the government of British Columbia, I think it was under Christy Clark, few years back when that ​​ Tsilhqot’in [Chilcotin], our neighbours to the east when they won their title case, they were fighting for some 25 years or so to to be able to have that, be recognised as the, the people of that land and their decisions over the land. 

00:23:28:12 – 00:24:00:20 

Clyde 

And part of that was connected back to the smallpox and how that really changed the entire landscape. By nearly wiping our peoples completely out. And, and so you look at that generation that survived that, by 1921, when all ​Nuxalkmc​ survivors were now relocated to the Bella Coola Indian Reserve, there was 230 people. So our population, we were never a big nation. 

00:24:00:20 – 00:24:10:08 

Clyde 

You know, we had, out of our four territories, ​​ Nuxalkulmc [Nuxalk Territory the Bella Coola Valley was the most populous with about, 

00:24:10:08 – 00:24:24:18 

Clyde 

8000. Some even, say 10,000 people, you know, about 40 towns and villages throughout the whole valley. The four territories, we ​​have the how come, the Bella Coola valley, the Talyuumc, where my lineage comes from is the South Inlet. 

00:24:24:20 – 00:24:29:05 

Clyde 

Which had, when Vancouver, sailed into there and 

00:24:29:05 – 00:24:50:22 

Clyde 

1793, something like that. He had, estimated about 3000 people in the town. Even he had figured that he thought at first that it was a white settlement because of how, you know, it was built with a fort around it and the big houses and everything was until he got closer that he saw it was ​​our Talyuumc ancestors. 

00:24:51:00 – 00:25:13:03 

Clyde 

And so we get this number about 3000 people in the town at that time. And, then our Kw’alhna territory, which is right in between Nuxalk and ​​Heiltsuk our neighbours in Bella Bella, our relatives and friends there, and the nation​​, Kw’alhna , was one of our smallest territories, had about seven villages, maybe about 1500 people at that time. 

00:25:13:05 – 00:25:38:11 

Clyde 

And then the East, Ista-Sutslhm which is now the ​​Dean Channel. Kimsquit area had about, 6000 or so people. So, you know, they they say that our population was around maybe 25- 30,000 for Nuxalk. And, by 1921, when all four territories were now at Bella Coola on the reserve, there was only about 230 people. 

00:25:38:13 – 00:26:05:05 

Clyde 

One of my elders, my ​​great Auntie Ama who was actually she was born that year, she had in her lifetime, she had passed at around 96, but she had, more descendants came from her than there were Nuxalk people alive the year she was born. She had six living generations. She had 17 children, and, six living generations. 

00:26:05:08 – 00:26:33:10 

Clyde 

when she had passed, about 250 or so descendants today. So just one person was able to, you know, bring all that life, out of that, that horrible chapter of, of our almost extermination. Right. And so we talk about these four catastrophes that we hear in our ancient times, that the ancestors survived the falling of the sky, the burning of the world, the flood, and the famine. 

00:26:33:12 – 00:27:21:05 

Clyde 

And these helped shape some of the the culture, the protocols, the traditions that our ancestors followed. And so when this sort of modern era begins, this, this transformation that Nuxalk has gone under, we identified the four sort of modern catastrophes: smallpox of 1862, the relocation to reserve. So taking our, survivors off of the their village sites, off of their ancestral lands and moving them to the reserve, and then selling that land to Norwegian settlers, which still today, when you go to the Bella Coola Valley, you see that, you know, you can see that, where the majority of the land is, is settler families. 

00:27:21:05 – 00:27:55:05 

Clyde 

And then our Nuxalk population, our reserve. There was no laws for the growth of that reserve with the growth of our population. So that reserve was made for 200 or so people. Now we’re close to 2000 people and and there’s not enough room there. And so we’re still affected by those decisions that were made 100 years ago. The selling of our land to Norwegian settlers, which I also come from, my dad comes from that Norwegian community in Bella Coola. 

00:27:55:07 – 00:28:22:22 

Clyde 

And, so I got, really interesting perspective where I got to, grow up in a time where I was labelled a half breed, which is something you don’t hear anymore. In fact, it was really neat to see a bunch of native youth. Never heard that word before. In our own community, we had a chief who had, Potlatched and, called for the ending of that type of categorising, people. 

00:28:22:22 – 00:28:49:10 

Clyde 

He said, if you have Nuxalk lineage, ​​ Nuxalkmc [Nuxalk person]. And, so that kind of stopped that using those types of language. And, you know, we’re we’re very mixed as well. So even when you think of what does a Nuxalk person, what do they look like? You know, we’ve we we’ve even faced that when the nine dancers went to Germany in 1885, where, they did not look Indian enough. 

00:28:49:14 – 00:29:16:21 

Clyde 

So feathers were put in their hair so that the German, you know, people who were, were witnessing their sharing of culture could believe them as as you know, being Indigenous people. And that’s still something that we face, you know, we so the smallpox, the the relocation of reserve, the potlatch ban, which really changed how our people govern and look after each other in our land, and then the residential school. 

00:29:16:23 – 00:29:41:08 

Clyde 

So these are the traumas that, our nations are still healing from. And that was a big part of our work. It really shapes our work, shapes what we’re doing. Because in order to achieve the big goals that we want to achieve, we have to first do the healing. We have to be able to tell those stories and and be able to do the work to heal from that. 

00:29:41:10 – 00:30:12:18 

Clyde 

And, part of that healing, part of that, that story is, is looking at places where, you know, like museums, like, universities. Our elders saw very early on that, using Western academics is a good place to preserve our traditions where they weren’t allowed to teach their own children. But you have, you know, more extraction now, it’s not resource extraction now. 

00:30:12:18 – 00:30:49:19 

Clyde 

It’s knowledge extraction. So you have academics that have come into our community for 100 years now and, document our history. And for those academics, that was their career. But for the Nuxalk elders that worked with those academics, they were preserving that for future generations. That was their motivation, their goals. And so part of the, I guess, the fun part about this work, is being able to do that research, to go to these spaces, to find those treasures that the elders had put away for that time. 

00:30:49:21 – 00:31:18:02 

Clyde 

And they always reminded us that, that we would regain that knowledge, that they preserve that because that was essential for our next, steps into our future. Like all of of the Indigenous nations, no one wants to disappear. No one wants to be forgotten and left out. And so it’s always, I think, a part of our collective 

00:31:18:02 – 00:31:23:09 

Clyde 

worldview that, you know, we will once again become the stewards of our land. 

00:31:23:09 – 00:31:58:10 

Clyde 

We will become sovereign peoples. And I think that the time that we’re entering, with more awareness building, with more sharing, we’re coming to that understanding, especially in, in the governance level, that it’s in Canada’s best interest to have healthy First Nations that are stewarding the land, that are are ensuring that, you know, all of that, that beauty, that that resource, that history, everything is, is cared for and that, a path is cleared. 

00:31:58:12 – 00:32:39:05 

Clyde 

So that way future generations can can continue forward without having the suffering of, of that our each generation has experienced since. And, with each of those sort of successful, you know, achievements through those things, it’s opened more opportunities for, for Nuxalk people and for sharing those stories. And I just, I can just imagine what the generation, when we had the youth come for the opening of Nuxalk Strong, they, you know, it’s it’s different because when I went to school, we didn’t have that much culture. 

00:32:39:07 – 00:33:01:17 

Clyde 

You know, the courses were new. We just got the opportunity to learn our language in the school system. And even when, I like sharing this. When I was in grade nine, and we got a high school Nuxalk language teacher, all of us were ready to switch over. And our French teacher, she went and closed the door and she sat us down and said, “don’t take that course. 

00:33:01:17 – 00:33:23:01 

Clyde 

Stay in French. You’ll be able to, learn a language that’s that can get you places. You can get off the reserve and make something of your lives”, you know, really horrible when you think about it now. And, I keep today, I think. Well, I didn’t get anywhere from learning French, but Nuxalk has brought me so many places. 

00:33:23:01 – 00:34:05:09 

Clyde 

Learning my language has, not only made me a, I think, a better person, it’s been able to route me into my identity and and be a part of society contributing in that way. And it’s allowed me to have these great experiences to work with amazing people, you know, around the world and and to share that story. And each time we do, I feel that it’s like we are, turning that next chapter of humanity to a point, a place where things like the sufferings of our ancestors, hopefully one day in human history, in the human future, will be, you know, just an unthinkable thing to do. 

00:34:05:11 – 00:34:51:02 

Clyde 

And that’s really the root when you look at all native, sort of worldview. Over the past 100 years, it’s been non-violence. It’s been doing things in a good way. It’s been understanding that suffering and and I think because of our worldview, because we are so rooted in our history, you know, ​​ the Smayusta [ancestral origin stories] the the origins going back to the the first ancestors, we can say we know who the original 45 families, the original 300 people who at the end of the Ice Age, came into the Central Coast and became a people, and that their legacy, their longevity being part of the potlatch civilisation, that worldview allowed humanity to to grow 

00:34:51:02 – 00:35:26:16 

Clyde 

in this really beautiful place and to be preserved for a long period of time, because we had these worldviews through the potlatch that each lineage is is connected to that territory, that by sharing one’s wealth, by putting into the economy, you validate ​​ su7ulm [title and right] your title, right to your lands, your waters, your resource, your future. And so this concept of taking territory, taking things by force does not exist, because to take a land, by force, you would have no connection to it. 

00:35:26:18 – 00:35:52:04 

Clyde 

You would have no lineage to it, so it would be useless to you. And in the same way, acknowledging that each family and lineage has their own stories, their own crests, their own experiences. And so this prevented things like, you know, religious conversion and things like that. So I think all these factors of our civilisation, of the potlatch civilisation allowed that longevity of our civilisations, allowed that strength for us to continue. 

00:35:52:06 – 00:36:28:16 

Clyde 

And those great heroes, those elders, those leaders that preserved and documented and taught, even though you know, it was a dangerous time to do so, you know, those were the heroes that have cleared the path for us today, which is a foundation teaching Nuyalcalhlayc [clear that path] clearing the path for the next generation to succeed. So I really wonder now, how how much the work that we’ve done, how much it’s going to affect the young people, you know, this next generation that is growing up in this time where we don’t have to be ashamed of our cultures, we don’t have to hide our identity. 

00:36:28:16 – 00:36:57:09 

Clyde 

We can we can live our Nuxalk lives, in this modern world. It’s not this choice that our parents had to make. You know, it’s. We can have that, we can have the both. Both of it, you know, and, just imagine what that generation will be able to bring to the table, you know, imagine what goals they will be able to achieve, you know, because of the past that that have been cleared. 

00:36:57:11 – 00:37:27:04 

Clyde 

And not only that, that’s the opportunities. Any time a nation does any kind of work like that, it inspires the next. And so this is another phrase that we use in our in our teachings. Anukw’ntniknm [inspirational creativity] inspirational creativity. So the work that we do inspires others to to tap into their creativity and, to bring out, you know, their stories, bring out their traditions, bring out their, their beliefs. 

00:37:27:04 – 00:37:51:02 

Clyde 

And, and to do it in a good way, a way that, inspires others, you know, and that that it continues and that growth continues. So you can see that through our history on how all of those factors have sort of led to this experience that we’re having right now and the work that we’re doing. So, yeah, that was my my long-winded way to respond to that. 

00:37:51:07 – 00:38:14:09 

Jennifer 

Can I add to that? Because you made me think that actually this Nuxalk Strong exhibit did not come out of the blue. That and I didn’t explain that very much of my role in general at UBC is as a teacher, and I’ve actually had the opportunity to work with Snxakila and ​​other Nuxalkmc on three exhibits that have to do with the Nuxalk Nation. 

00:38:14:09 – 00:38:39:06 

Jennifer 

So we started quite small, in a class, in 2012 called “Museum Practice and Curation.” We brought together exactly one treasure that was at the Seattle Art Museum and one internal ​​mask of Alhkw’untam [Creator] of the Creator that was at the Museum of Anthropology, and we brought them together for a small student exhibit called Together Again: Nuxalk  

00:38:39:06 – 00:39:14:07 

Jennifer 

Faces of the Sky. Celestial faces of the sky. And those students worked with Nuxalk community members, learning about the meaning of the sun because the Creator is in the form of the sun. And then what was it? I guess six years later, Emily was the, incredible T.A. for another version of Museum practice and curatorship, and we focussed on Nuxalk radio, and again, a different exhibit that actually was at the Koerner or. 

00:39:14:07 – 00:39:42:02 

Jennifer 

No, sorry. At the I k Burke Barber, IK Barber Learning Centre. Thank you. And then, you know, so came forward into drawing together so many of the projects, so many of the relationships that have been made between Nuxalk people and their treasures, whether it’s songs, whether ​​it’s Smayusta , whether it’s material, tangible treasures that came into Nuxalk Strong. 

00:39:42:05 – 00:39:53:22 

Jennifer 

So and I wanted to add to the words that Snxakila shared, which was another motivating, Nuxalk philosophy. And I’m going to mispronounce it, but reciprocal generosity. 

00:39:53:22 – 00:39:54:14 

Clyde 

​​​ Nuyayanlh [reciprocal generosity] 

00:39:54:16 – 00:40:40:12 

Jennifer 

​​​ Nuyayanlh [reciprocal generosity] which really motivated our methodology in this grant, but also was one of the main themes Snxakila talked about. A new way of thinking about exhibit, so many exhibits, when Indigenous people voice their anger at treasures and knowledge having been extracted, they get seen as the victims that this was a process of theft. And what Clyde just shared with us was the foresight, the wisdom, the thinking about those yet unborn that the elders who worked with the ethnographers, the musicologists, the linguists thought about even placing their treasures in museums and so that makes the ​Nuxalkmc ​are the agents of their future. 

00:40:40:17 – 00:41:06:10 

Clyde 

And not all, it’s,I was saying this a lot too, when we initially were being interviewed about the project, and one thing that really stood out then was, we had an experience just before, Nuxalk Strong, during Covid time, where a totem pole from RBCM was repatriated back to the nation and, it wasn’t done in a very good way. 

00:41:06:12 – 00:41:31:16 

Clyde 

Not so much on RBCM’s side. More on the Nuxalk side. We just were not ready. And the time that that it all happened in was such a chaotic time that we weren’t even able to meet publicly or together to be able to talk about, you know, the impact of returning such a great treasure, back to, to Nuxalk homelands. 

00:41:31:18 – 00:42:06:21 

Clyde 

So, with being able to do this project now, see, at that time, the community was, the anger came out, you know, “why are all of these things in museums? Why is all of this knowledge not in our community, not accessible to our people? And it’s all there. And it’s like it’s it’s kept locked away.” And so this is where for a long time, our people, have viewed museums and academic institutions as colonial trophy cases, right? 

00:42:07:03 – 00:42:44:21 

Clyde 

Displaying, you know, what they’ve taken from us. And almost in a way, like it was taunting us and not like that [totem] pole to you that I was just mentioned when I was, in Victoria as a youth, going to high school there. We the first and you talk about the path being cleared. So when I was in, in, in grade 11 was when we had the first, BC First Nations 12 course came out, an alternative to like social studies and history, to be able to get a credit and, for graduation. 

00:42:44:21 – 00:43:08:12 

Clyde 

So that course was first offered. And in that we had a project at the museum where we had to sort of pick a treasure thing and do a little report on it. And that’s where I had come across these totem poles on our visit there. And, at the time, you know, I was probably 16, 17. I didn’t realise that my last name Tallio was the name of our village. 

00:43:08:14 – 00:43:31:21 

Clyde 

And, we go to this museum and there’s these Tallio totem poles from Talyu [Tallio], BC, and I’m reading this information I call home and talk to my grandparents and they’re like, yeah, you know. Yeah, that’s where we’re from. That’s our village. And I’m like, what? Why didn’t I know this? Like and so that that pole you know, kind of it sent me on a little journey. 

00:43:31:21 – 00:44:03:23 

Clyde 

So not only did I have to do that that that report and, you know, an interview with my grandparents on our history, it then started to, you know, get me interested in more, you know, because you don’t when you’re growing up on the reserve and especially a, you know, I think my generation might have been sort of the last generation to really, have that segregation, you know, it was clear in our, in our community, it’s actually divided in half and one end is called ​​the White [people]’s end. 

00:44:04:00 – 00:44:21:13 

Clyde 

And, you know, we grew up in a time where we had, at the ​​siren, you know, it was, go off at 9 p.m. and all the native kids had to be back in their home, you know, and seeing, like, friends on the other side of town, you know, not having to abide by that. You know, we had times at that growing up. 

00:44:21:13 – 00:44:47:21 

Clyde 

We even had the churches protesting funeral ceremonies. If they weren’t done in the Christian way. We had organised regalia burnings. There was kids my age that, weren’t allowed to even go trick or treating like the churches were just so, had a hold on our community. And, now, today, those churches are empty. And, you know, we’re in the works of building our big house now, moving towards that. 

00:44:47:21 – 00:44:53:20 

Jennifer 

Clyde, you should say how old you are. I know we’re moving on to the next question. Yeah, with just your voice, people won’t know. 

00:44:53:21 – 00:45:21:19 

Clyde 

Yeah, yeah. So I’m 38 now. I was born in ‘87. So really, it’s when when when we’ve been able to share these types of stories and experiences, people are kind of really shocked. Especially Canadians are really shocked. You know, because they don’t realise that that’s happening. Even people in our own valley, never realised like how much we are disconnected and, and still kept out even today. 

00:45:21:21 – 00:45:48:16 

Clyde 

You know, you think everything is safe and fine. We we just had about two weeks ago, we put up a on on the reserve now we have all of the stop signs, the slow signs, the street names are all in Nuxalk, and they don’t have an English translation. They’re they’re all in Nuxalk. We tried to then put one up at one of our village sites that that our community members are re-occupying the site. 

00:45:48:18 – 00:46:22:04 

Clyde 

We already have totem poles and such there. But once we put that sign up, it stood for maybe five days, and then it was chopped down. That level of aggression, you know, it’s still there, that racism, that fear that, you know, we’re going to take back what is ours and, and push, you know, the people that reside there into suffering, that fear, you know, it’s it’s really strong and it’s it pushes people to do horrible things like that type of vandalism and not realising the impact of doing that 

00:46:22:04 – 00:46:48:08 

Clyde 

vandalism, is like sending a clear message that, you know, don’t step out of your place. You know, this is ours now. Your language doesn’t belong here anymore, you know. And where can we, our people, feel safe if not in our own homelands, to be able to practice. And even in that spot, there aren’t even any settlers living in that direct spot. 

00:46:48:10 – 00:47:14:10 

Clyde 

It didn’t affect them in any way. None of them had to stop at that stop sign. It’s a dirt road beside an old abandoned village that we’re reoccupying You know, it wasn’t a threat to them, but it shows you that there’s still a lot of work that we have to do, a lot of healing. And it does suck having to fall on Indigenous people to educate, you know, society as well. 

00:47:14:12 – 00:47:53:00 

Clyde 

And so that’s where I find work like this, having good allies, you know, like Jennifer, like Emily, it helps to it helps us to be able to do the work at home and then come and join in in stuff like this, and, and, and then being able to, to return back home without having to leave to continue to do this work, you know. Yeah, that’s, I think, really important to have those good allies that that have seen and our experience and have heard from us and can, you know, help us to to spread that story. 

00:47:53:00 – 00:48:25:05 

Clyde 

So now, you know, we now are starting to transform into seeing museums as, as places now where a new future can happen, a new relationship that isn’t just extractive, it’s now a place that, places that we can share these belief systems, these world views and, and, and use it as like a platform in a way to, to share with the larger world who we are as small populations as micro nations today. 

00:48:25:05 – 00:48:25:15 

Clyde 

Right. 

00:48:25:15 – 00:48:55:21 

Clyde 

But now the change that we’ve seen, just in, in my lifetime, just in, you know, in a 20 year period, even where a Nuxalk nation has now become the top employer in the valley, you know, and our services are not just helping our own people, but, you know, that that root teaching of we’re all human beings and we all, you know, we all deserve to have a full human experience to have ​​that, Stl’mstaliwa [the full human experience]. 

00:48:55:22 – 00:49:19:02 

Clyde 

and so that non-violence, that doing things in a good way, that Indigenous way of doing things, is also important to what we’re achieving, because the methods that we’re using to achieve our goals are like, I like how one of our elders said it, she said that, we are putting a stop to colonisation, to that sickness. 

00:49:19:08 – 00:49:41:19 

Clyde 

It’s a human sickness. And colonisation has been a domino effect happening for, you know, a few thousand years now, even before us. Look at how much we’re affected by the Roman Empire still. You know, like that fell, what, for 1500 years ago, something like that. But we’re still affected. Our colonisers were colonised by the Romans, you know. So. 

00:49:41:19 – 00:50:24:13 

Clyde 

And then who colonised the Romans before that? It’s this long sickness, inhumanity of thinking that, you know, one is better than others and can take and, and can bring this suffering and then eventually it rises up and repeats itself. So I think that one neat thing about our Indigenous worldview is that collective, decision to do things in a different way, to not continue on that legacy, to, to re-embrace our culture, our traditions, our worldviews, and to now share them in spaces in academia and, in art installations, you know, in, in experiences. 

00:50:24:13 – 00:50:31:13 

Clyde 

I think that’s going to help us, turn the next chapter of the human story. Yeah. 

00:50:31:13 – 00:50:33:01 

Oliver 

can you tell us a bit about 

00:50:33:01 – 00:50:36:10 

Oliver 

what went into creating Nuxalk Strong? 

00:50:36:10 – 00:50:37:23 

Oliver 

the logistics and perhaps 

00:50:38:00 – 00:50:40:06 

Oliver 

the milestones. I also want to hear about 

00:50:40:06 – 00:50:44:07 

Oliver 

the relationship between the museum and the nation and, 

00:50:44:07 – 00:50:49:22 

Oliver 

how that’s changing. And, I suppose supporting one another. 

00:50:49:23 – 00:51:27:20 

Clyde 

I think I would come at it from one. I’ll use one treasure, you know, just so it’s not such a ten minute answer again. One treasure, that returned was, or that came to be part of this exhibit, was ​​a yakyanlh mountain goat wool robe. And, Nuxalk in the Central Coast. We had our own unique style of wool weaving and, these beautiful yakyanlh [mountain goat wool robe] these robes were made and, were worn by people who have accomplished, you know, great deeds for the for the nation. 

00:51:27:20 – 00:51:53:01 

Clyde 

And then they get that right to be dressed and, and and wear one of these beautiful robes. So one of our great leaders, who actually, I think, really planted the seeds, in me early was, Lhkw’aakas​ ​Willie Hans. He was, my great uncle. And as a child, we used to me and my cousin Gloria would go. 

00:51:53:01 – 00:52:13:08 

Clyde 

That was her grandfather, after school, you know, kindergarten, grade one. We would go to his house and tell our parents, you know, we’re done and able to get us. And he’d have a tire swing for us. He would tell us stories. He gave us our names. He was a great leader. And, this ​​ yakyanlh [mountain goat wool robe] belonged to him. 

00:52:13:08 – 00:52:33:13 

Clyde 

It was his father’s before that. And ​​Tallio Hans was a great man as well. Those poles that I mentioned earlier that were in the museum in Victoria, that I had to do that book report on, that inspired me to, you know, learn more. He was part of that, you know, he was part of ​​ Putl’altnicik [thinking of those yet unborn] that thinking of our ripple effect of our actions. 

00:52:33:15 – 00:53:05:05 

Clyde 

And so by taking those three poles and putting them into the museum, he ensured that our, our community, which you know, existed for thousands of years, wasn’t just forgotten as we were. Our territory was amalgamated into the Bella Coola Indian Reserve. So his, son, Willie Hans also was that type of person. And he had that last wool robe and he in the 70s —was in the 70s, right when he decided to put it into a museum. 

00:53:05:07 – 00:53:33:22 

Clyde 

And, unfortunately, it got lost. You know, it. The community had forgotten which museum it went to. There was pictures of it. There was memory of it, but no one knew where it was. And we ended up finding it. And we were able to then bring that treasure to be part of Nuxalk Strong. And at the exhibit we had descendants, as well as the, the son of, of Willie Hans who is now the chief of the Hans family today. 

00:53:34:00 – 00:53:55:05 

Clyde 

​​​ Anulhkw’ikmlayc  [Nuxalk name of Aaron Hans] who saw the the Robe when he was younger, was able to reconnect with it. And the whole family was able to run out the whole family because it’s 250 descendants. But, you know, the ones that came were able to reconnect with it. And that now has led to the revitalization of wool weaving in the community. 

00:53:55:05 – 00:54:16:09 

Clyde 

We now have a group that is learning to weave, wool. We, have a plan even that, you know, that the owner of that robe, ​​ Anulhkw’ikmlayc [Nuxalk name of Aaron Hans] has decided that, what he had said in for the community and for the family was that we would like that robe to eventually stay at MOA. 

00:54:16:11 – 00:54:40:17 

Clyde 

So that way it’s closer to home. He didn’t want it to come back yet, because we’re not ready for it yet. We don’t have the the, you know, a repository to keep all of these treasures. We’re still in the process of revitalizing and learning those traditions. So, until we’re ready to return the treasures so they can continue to help the growth of our people. 

00:54:40:19 – 00:55:04:02 

Clyde 

We need safe places to store them for now. So that’s kind of what that led to. You know, that’s just one example of something that is making a huge change, you know, and it’s just a decision. You think about that decision that, you know, to put the blanket in a museum. Who knows what could have happened to it if he didn’t didn’t do that. 

00:55:04:04 – 00:55:48:17 

Clyde 

And now this beautiful example of our tradition of wool weaving has is preserved. Now it can be revitalised. And now today, we have people who have earned the right to wear those treasures again, that have done that work, to be able to wear and dance with, with a treasure as beautiful as that wool robe. So, yeah, I think that’s the type of new relationship that’s coming out, the type of, you know, how we’re, we’re able to, to make these decisions now, connected to those treasures, whereas before they’re just behind a piece of glass, only accessible to those that can afford to travel out and go to those spaces. 

00:55:48:19 – 00:55:58:12 

Clyde 

Now it’s accessible to to all Nuxalk that want to learn. And it’s teachings can be shared with others. That also inspires others. Yeah. 

00:55:58:11 – 00:55:59:20 

Jennifer 

And can I add, 

00:55:59:20 – 00:56:23:17 

Jennifer 

so that’s an example of ​Anukw’ntniknm ​inspirational creativity. And so we show a lot of examples in the exhibit for the public of ways that treasures in museums have inspired from meeting the hands of your ancestors, who made those historic treasures. Artists are now remaking, whether for ceremony or for representation of self or for regalia. 

00:56:23:18 – 00:56:50:11 

Jennifer 

But specifically to ​​ yakyanlh [mountain goat wool robes]for mountain goat wool weaving. We managed to get a grant, between the Nuxalk Nation and with the museum’s help, not only are we bringing in very accomplished cedar bark weavers who are now just learning mountain goat wool weaving with, ​​ Ts’msyen [Tsimshian] weaver, William White, but he knows ​​Chilkat weaving a northern style, not the Nuxalk style. 

00:56:50:13 – 00:57:30:00 

Jennifer 

But we’ve also got funding to support bringing in ​​ yakyanlh  from the RBCM in Victoria and from the Canadian Museum of History in Ottawa, so that the Nuxalk these weavers don’t need to travel to Ottawa to, the Glenbow in Calgary, where ​​the Talio Hans yakyanlh, to Victoria. But we can come for three days together at the Museum of Anthropology in one place and study together with Willie, with Clyde, with Jacob, and bring back this beautiful technology that the skill is mind blowing, how, you know, takes a year to make, a robe like that. 

00:57:30:02 – 00:57:32:10 

Jennifer 

And that’s just one tiny example, 

00:57:32:10 – 00:57:36:23 

Jennifer 

Can we can we ask Emily for her example about co-stewardship of knowledge? 

00:57:36:23 – 00:57:46:07 

Jennifer 

Because that’s a non-museum treasure. Well, it’s another kind of treasure. Maybe that’s come out of this exhibit and this relationship. 

00:57:46:17 – 00:58:17:02 

Emily 

I was I was thinking about it, especially when we were talking about ​Nuyayanlh [reciprocal generosity]​ reciprocal generosity. Because something that is, really lovely about this, collaborative project is that it isn’t [finished]. Our relationships together aren’t finished just because the exhibit is finished and up. You know, we’re continuing to, like, work together and think about new creative ways, that we can work with, museums and archives and libraries. 

00:58:17:04 – 00:58:59:04 

Emily 

That hold the nation’s heritage, to think about those future generations. And so the project that I’ve been working on, at the American Philosophical Society has come directly out of these conversations that we had about the exhibit and representation, moving towards how do we use Nuxalk laws and protocols to protect Nuxalk treasures wherever they’re held, whether they’re in the nation’s territory, whether they’re at the Museum of Anthropology or whether they are, in the case of where I am, 3000km away in Philadelphia at the American Philosophical Society, that’s in the archive where I’m a postdoctoral fellow, and they have some of the first, written documentation, of 

00:58:59:04 – 00:59:30:03 

Emily 

Nuxalk language by a non-Nuxalk anthropologist that many people may have heard of, of Franz Boas, who first, met Nuxalkmc back in Berlin. I met those nine Nuxalk men who travelled, all the way to Germany between 1885 and 1886, and was so, taken and impressed by them that he really changed his whole career, and inspired him to work on the Northwest Coast, and really connect with Indigenous communities there. 

00:59:30:05 – 00:59:55:22 

Emily 

And so what we’ve been doing at the APS with Nuxalk Ancestral Governance is creating a memo of understanding or a shared stewardship contract, that use Nuxalk laws, and put them into a contract that the American Philosophical Society will sign and ratify and use to care for Nuxalk language and heritage moving forward. We’ve been including Nuxalk language and protocols in that document. 

00:59:56:03 – 01:00:28:14 

Emily 

And one of our hopes is that this can be used kind of as a template to work with other museums and archives, kind of across the country. Because it really like so many Indigenous communities, Nuxalk treasures are really disparately located geographically so far away. And so the work of trying to build individual, meaningful, trusting relationships with a hundred different museums and archives and libraries that might have that information is just such a huge task. 

01:00:28:16 – 01:00:52:03 

Emily 

And so the hope of this MOU is that we can help, one by one, each, staff hear what Nuxalk laws are, what those protocols look like, how to care for that language. And so that, you know, even if, even if that staff don’t have, the capacity to come and visit Nuxalk territory and meet people in, in person, they can at least follow the law, right? 

01:00:52:03 – 01:01:09:03 

Emily 

They can at least follow Indigenous laws and be educated in that way. And so that’s a project that, I’ve been really excited about, and really happy to have come out of kind of this work of moving kind of beyond representation to who has the authority and who has the control to care for their own heritage. 

01:01:09:05 – 01:01:20:07 

Emily 

And how do we put, put those protocols into place in a way that, settler run institutions, like many museums, can recognise and understand and sit within their own procedures and protocols? 

01:01:20:07 – 01:01:25:02 

Clyde 

Yeah. It’s really a transformation, I think, that we’re we’re a part of right now. 

01:01:25:06 – 01:01:45:22 

Clyde 

When Emily was speaking there, it really just brought my mind back to, you know, that that worldview that we have ​​as Nuxalkmc, which is an extension, you know, of that potlatch civilisation. And you know, what an amazing accomplishment for humanity that was, you know that 

01:01:45:22 – 01:01:56:01 

Clyde 

From our perspective, when we look at the world, there’s a Smayusta [ancestral origin stories] that we, ​​ Smayusta is a is a story of the first ancestors. 

01:01:56:01 – 01:02:21:01 

Clyde 

I don’t know if we mentioned that we were throwing that word around a lot, ​​but Smayusta [ancestral origin stories] are the stories of those first ancestors that that settled the land that established it, that established that those traditions that that made those relationships. That connect us to those, to the land, to our neighbours, and then to to the future generations, to us today and to those to come. 

01:02:21:03 – 01:02:50:16 

Clyde 

So I think about, how that sort of ripple effect, of the decision of, of those nine dancers to travel to Germany, you know, in 1885, to go there for 13 months and to tour and to share our culture. You know what they came back with, the inspiration. You know, that’s where Anukw’ntniknm, you know, inspirational creativity. 

01:02:50:20 – 01:03:21:03 

Clyde 

They inspired Boas, you know, to switches careers. And because of that, Boas was able to inspire other academics and help create institutions that, you know, held where Nuxalk treasures eventually would go. Nuxalk knowledge, Nuxalk, you know, material culture, all of that. You know, it was, just little decisions like that which are so amazing on how they can affect the world. 

01:03:21:05 – 01:03:51:11 

Clyde 

And, I think that, in the, the work that we’re doing, it always is very interesting to me to see, we might not see it at the moment, but, all of the things that grow out of, you know, one project to the next, you know, we’re we’re essentially ​Anukw’ntniknm​. So, you know, we’re inspiring ourselves to find that next creative, thing that we want to then bring out and contribute. 

01:03:51:12 – 01:04:23:13 

Clyde 

So, it’s, I think that, the future, you know, that we’ve we’ve started now, this, this path that we’ve cleared and, and working with, especially between museums and the nation. I think I’ll leave it at that one first. Museums in the nation, we’re no longer seeing those as those colonial trophy cases. We’re now seeing that perhaps, you know, having a museum of our own. 

01:04:23:13 – 01:04:50:05 

Clyde 

You know, what could that look like? You know, how would that support, the revitalisation of Nuxalk culture, you know? And, would we do it in the same way as how MOA is set up?  Or would we, you know, do it in, in following Nuxalk law and Nuxalk governance protocols? So all of that work like sometimes it can seem a little bit boring, you know, like sitting down and writing a protocol agreement. Uckk. 

01:04:50:07 – 01:05:15:12 

Clyde 

Not exciting at all. And, but like each of those. Right, each of those times that we do it and we’re getting used to to practicing, in that way. Right. It’s, it’s just opening the doors to the next thing which eventually will one day be that Nuxalk Museum that is able to bring these treasures home. 

01:05:15:14 – 01:05:44:06 

Clyde 

And there’s so many treasures out there. We’re going to need a building, you know, that’s that’s bigger than anything we have at home right now. So the near future, we’re not going to see everything returned. And maybe that’s not what the next generation will want anyways. But what we do see is a space that can be able to continue this work, that can bring a treasure back to Nuxalk territory, either permanently or on loan. 

01:05:44:08 – 01:06:30:02 

Clyde 

That can then be studied, that can then be recreated and then brought back in ceremony, brought back to the family and become part of the family’s tradition again. And then inspiring the family. You know, that’s the type of future I see. And, with all of this governance work that we’re doing right now, in creating these policies and these protocols in, in studying Nuxalk law and how the elders had left us that information, it really is, helping us to solve a lot of, of of issues that have been either swept under the, under the carpet or have been, not been given a voice at all. 

01:06:30:04 – 01:06:48:00 

Clyde 

You know, it allows us to do things in a, in a way that, you know, I always like to saying “many hands make light work.” You know, the elders used to say that all the time. “Many hands make light work” when we do things together. When we do things in a good way, we all accomplish our goals together. 

01:06:48:00 – 01:07:06:15 

Clyde 

And we all get to celebrate in that achievement together. So I think that that’s what this work is, really opening up for the future. Yeah. More opportunities to collaborate, more opportunities for creativity and more opportunities to inspire that change. 

01:07:06:15 – 01:07:10:22 

Oliver 

What advice do you have for others that want to do, 

01:07:10:21 – 01:07:13:05 

Oliver 

Community university partnerships? 

01:07:13:05 – 01:07:42:12 

Clyde 

I think, I can start first. For for Indigenous people. I would say that, you know, don’t jump onto every project. You know, you gotta learn how to pick them, you know, because, a lot of times we when we work in this, in this area, you know, we want to we’re so rooted in, in that experience, you know, in that history. 

01:07:42:12 – 01:08:12:23 

Clyde 

And we want to take advantage of all those opportunities to be able to share and create alliances and partnerships and clear the path and inspire others. But we can get burnt out, you know, and it’s it falls on, on those community members, you know, those ones that, have stepped up and have taken on those roles or who have inherited those roles, we kind of feel like we have to that we’re obligated to participate in all of that. 

01:08:12:23 – 01:08:45:00 

Clyde 

So I would say that, you know, look at the, the, potential of a project, right. And, and pick the ones that can help us, maximise, you know what we’re what we’re working on what we’re trying to achieve at home. And also that the the collaboration, for a long time has been one sided, you know, has been still in that colonial mindset of extracting, of taking, right. 

01:08:45:02 – 01:09:21:09 

Clyde 

And, for years, even, our, elders, our, our knowledge keepers, the people that were interviewed might not even have their names written down. You know, an informant might be the best that they get. And so these beautiful philosophers, these great thinkers, aren’t being acknowledged for that contribution, that then those academics go off into their careers and, you know, they do all this great work and that inspiration has come from. 

01:09:21:11 – 01:09:49:09 

Clyde 

And not to take away from that, those people’s achievements and such. But, you know, that inspiration has come from a very specific place. And to be able to be welcomed in and share those teachings with someone, you know, that are meant to go to our next generations. And even at that time, those relatives, like my mum, for example, wasn’t allowed to learn the language, wasn’t allowed to learn the teachings. 

01:09:49:09 – 01:10:13:09 

Clyde 

Right. Her generation, the we call them the “lost generation” because they were told that, you know, you “it’s a white man’s world today” and that the only way to to make something of your life is if you abandoned everything who you are, who your, your people are, and just move into the white man’s world. But that’s not, you know, that’s not the reality. 

01:10:13:09 – 01:10:52:21 

Clyde 

That’s not true. Like that. That type of black and white thinking just doesn’t exist anymore. So, yeah, I would say that would be my advice is, you know, look at how you can create, those long-lasting relationships. I think of all the work that will come out of our relationship and our partnership with Emily, with Jennifer, all these great projects that we’ve we’ve worked on, the accomplishments we had and the future ones that will continue to do. Those types of, relationships, are very important, both for the communities and for the institutions, because it’s it’s transforming both. 

01:10:52:23 – 01:11:21:06 

Clyde 

Yeah. So I would say that to also not, to not limit ourselves in in how big it can be, you know. It’s fun to dream really big, even though it might be unrealistic, but, you know, I’m really lucky that, I’ve got, you know, great friends that, are helping us to achieve those big goals, right? 

01:11:21:08 – 01:11:41:14 

Clyde 

I mean, Nuxalk Strong through the, process when we had to do the writing. I was like, okay, this is the information I want. And Jennifer was like, that’s too big. No one’s going to stand there and read all that. I’m like, okay? Because in my mind I’m thinking, what information do I want to preserve ​​for Nuxalkmc? 

01:11:41:16 – 01:12:00:16 

Clyde 

You know, the Nuxalk that will stand there for an hour and read all of that, that will take pictures and look at them later. They will have those conversations, but also reminded me that we’re trying to share a message with people who might never even heard of us before. Don’t even know how to pronounce our name Nuxalk. 

01:12:00:18 – 01:12:23:15 

Clyde 

And, so we had to, you know, I had to learn how to condense that information into a paragraph, where it can still be impactful on telling what this beautiful treasure is that they’re looking at and how it’s connected to the community, you know, and, and how then it fits into the story of us today. Right? 

01:12:23:17 – 01:12:33:01 

Clyde 

Okay. So, yeah, I would, I think, Emily would be good to hear from her perspective. And then Jennifer can bring us, full circle. 

01:12:33:02 – 01:12:44:05 

Emily 

Yeah. I think for this question, I’m thinking specifically about, university partners, who are interested in doing community work. And I guess, 

01:12:44:06 – 01:13:11:22 

Emily 

my best advice, is, to come to these projects with a lot of, humility. Like something that I really value about and struggle against in academia is this very individualistic mindset that there is, you know, an assumption that as a researcher, you come with this like grand theory or idea of like how you’re going to make a difference. 

01:13:12:00 – 01:13:35:21 

Emily 

And it’s that or the highway. And the best, you know, for, for me at least, starting to work with the nation, began with, being told “no”, I came to, the Nuxalk Stewardship Office, after having done quite a lot of research and like, talking to people with an idea that I thought was going to, like, really connect with the nation. 

01:13:35:22 – 01:13:54:03 

Emily 

There’s a lot of work being done around​​, like, eulachan conservation. And so that so that was like, what my proposal was, and the current head of the stewardship office at the time, Megan Moody, came back to me and said, “we’ve done a lot of that already. We’re not interested in doing any more.” Period. 

01:13:54:05 – 01:14:20:04 

Emily 

“But if you still want to work with us, we actually do have a project that we could really use some help on.” And the best thing that I ever did was say, yeah, sure, tell me what it is, but let’s do it. And I think that, like flexibility and that attitude of, like, decentering, your own importance when you’re doing community-led work is really, really essential. 

01:14:20:06 – 01:14:42:08 

Emily 

And I, I also, it’s also been a big in addition to, like, actually allowing for really meaningful material projects that have made really great change and have done really good work, I think, in the nation. It’s also like given me a lot of confidence, that, you know, you don’t have to have everything all planned out ahead of time. 

01:14:42:10 – 01:15:20:09 

Emily 

You know, you can trust in the relationships that you you build together. You can trust in the good work and the aligned values that you have and the the big picture goals that you talk about. And that really can see you through. And so it’s yeah, that would be, that would be the advice that I’ve had, especially for folks in the university setting who are wanting to do this work, to really be able to hear, know, be able to change everything out, decentre yourself come to those projects with a lot of humility, and you’ll be really, surprised and with, how much like, joy and how much trust, and how 

01:15:20:09 – 01:15:23:19 

Emily 

much you’re able to accomplish together, that you wouldn’t have even expected. 

01:15:23:20 – 01:15:46:00 

Clyde 

The pace too, right? Like, I think of a lot of times where Emily has showed up and it wasn’t the right time for the community. There might have been a death or something. And that’s one thing that I guess a lot of people have that culture shock to, is knowing how the community reacts to certain things and what is inappropriate at that time. 

01:15:46:00 – 01:16:12:02 

Clyde 

Right. Like for us, when we lose, an elder, when we, you know, when we lose a community member, we, we shut everything down and we focus on on just being there for the family, paying respects to that that community member who has passed. And so we wouldn’t do work in that time. And so, I’ve seen a situation where Emily was in town to do work, and we had a situation like that. 

01:16:12:02 – 01:16:33:19 

Clyde 

And so she had to put aside, you know, doing the work and instead she just, you know, got handed a task, you know, and, began to, you know, help and and get involved. I think that’s the other thing, too, is, to not be afraid to, you know, get involved and help in the community like that. 

01:16:33:19 – 01:16:54:01 

Clyde 

It doesn’t have to just be about the work. The work will come. You know, even when we visit elders, we have a specific question. We might not get the answer to that question until five, you know, visits later. And, the whole time you’re you’re hearing all this information, you’re kind of like, how does this, you know, connect to my question? 

01:16:54:03 – 01:17:14:21 

Clyde 

And then after that fourth visit, you’re like, oh, I see. So yeah, I think that, Emily was able to, she has relationships in the community now that are beyond our professional relationship. So when she comes to town, you know, I don’t even, we don’t even necessarily have to go and greet her anymore, because somebody is already going to be there to pick her up. 

01:17:14:22 – 01:17:39:15 

Clyde 

Right? We don’t have to get up early and drive to the airport. Someone’s going to bring her, you know, like, that’s the kind of beauty about becoming part of the community. And even for Jennifer, you know, when she came in, you know, she stayed with a Nuxalk family. She’s still a part of that family today. That that family is very, protective of her, too, you know, like, she’s part of our our family, so. 

01:17:39:17 – 01:18:07:09 

Clyde 

And everyone now knows Jennifer, you know, because 30 years of working with our community and and, and the help too like, I think that’s the other thing that, is really great about doing things in an Indigenous way is because you’re you’re yes, you get to work on great projects and do these great works, but you also develop lifelong friendships and relationships and become part of the community in that way. 

01:18:07:11 – 01:18:28:22 

Clyde 

And that ​​that Nuyayanlh that, that reciprocal generosity. When we come to town, many Nuxalk Jennifer always offers her her space when we come to Vancouver. You know, it’s it’s great to have that relationship. When she comes home, everyone’s happy to see her at home. And, you know, they. What do they often say? 

01:18:28:22 – 01:18:57:08 

Clyde 

Right. “Welcome home.” Right. First thing you usually hear from people. So I think that, part of, I guess our responsibility to, you know, in the academic world is to be able, to highlight those experiences and to show, like that potential of what can come out of having a relationship, rooted in an Indigenous worldview and Indigenous foundation. 

01:18:57:08 – 01:18:59:07 

Clyde 

Right. And how that can then 

01:18:59:13 – 01:19:00:09 

Clyde 

support the work. 

01:19:00:09 – 01:19:05:17 

Jennifer 

Yeah, I was, I was thinking not nearly as profoundly as these two. 

01:19:05:17 – 01:19:33:14 

Jennifer 

But it just comes down to relationships with people. It comes down to the heart. Comes down to just spending time. And for me, I need to be a student forever. Because I come from a very New York City. Go, go, go accomplish accomplish, get through academia by writing those papers, by producing, by passing those milestones. 

01:19:33:16 – 01:19:48:11 

Jennifer 

And I remember when I first, my first full year, living, with my family there, I was going to say my Tallio family it’s a slightly different family than than Clyde’s. Same. 

01:19:48:11 – 01:19:49:09 

Clyde 

Same tree, different branch. 

01:19:49:11 – 01:20:31:07 

Jennifer 

Tree. Different branch. And I remember, first of all, I was constantly being told to stop talking. Which isn’t in my nature. I had to learn to listen, but also to just realise that it was okay if I sat in that living room on that couch and I was just there being me, and that that was enough. And I think there’s something very, the whole university set up, with grants and with deliverables, and even I have to say it, ‘best practices’ makes me cringe because it’s all just about individual people being human to each other. 

01:20:31:09 – 01:20:52:07 

Jennifer 

And that just grows and strengthens. And one of the things that I’m most, there’s two things, well, Nuxalk Strong, the exhibit had. As Clyde and Emily have already shared two audiences, it was inward focussed to the Nuxalk so they could be proud in seeing who they are reflected back at them. And there was such pride. 

01:20:52:09 – 01:21:01:06 

Jennifer 

I think you were leading to the students dancing in the Great Hall at the opening. That became a piece of potlatch work that was incredible to witness and be part of. 

01:21:01:06 – 01:21:08:18 

Jennifer 

But the other side, of course, is showing to the world who this mighty yet tiny nation is. 

01:21:08:19 – 01:21:37:02 

Emily 

adding on to that. I don’t know if this is where you’re going, Jennifer, but, a really practical suggestion, is, include, feed people, have food. I think that was like, also a really big a really big thing for us is like providing people with food and with meals, to, like, make time to sit down together, and have those, like, unstructured, just time to build relationships together and get to know each other. 

01:21:37:21 – 01:21:42:01 

Jennifer 

Yeah. Not goal oriented, actually. And it’s such a beautiful freedom. 

01:21:42:01 – 01:21:46:06 

Jennifer 

We never know when we go to visit a specific museum what’s going to happen. 

01:21:46:16 – 01:21:55:03 

Jennifer 

So yeah, planning, throw planning out the window. That’s terrible advice. 

01:21:55:05 – 01:21:58:09 

Clyde 

But it’s true, though, that happens on every project. 

01:21:58:09 – 01:22:04:03 

Clyde 

Once you, once you get into the community and you start doing the work, it always transforms. 

01:22:04:04 – 01:22:14:05 

Jennifer 

So Nuxalk Strong internal facing to Newark external to the public. I had to like sort of responses that I just gathered 

01:22:14:05 – 01:22:17:02 

Jennifer 

Director of of Marine. 

01:22:17:02 – 01:22:18:08 

Jennifer 

Stewardship, Chris. 

01:22:18:08 – 01:22:33:18 

Jennifer 

Nelson or one of the directors, who I’ve known since he was a teenager, and he’s a singer and a drummer and, cultural knowledge holder came to the museum, to the exhibit, and he said, “it feels like home.” 

01:22:33:20 – 01:23:16:08 

Jennifer 

And that was the ultimate statement that made me think we did it because we want Nuxalkmc to come to what, ostensibly on the outside is a foreign space and know that it’s their space. And then also the feedback that we’ve had from people coming from everywhere, including Germany, and around the world, getting at the emotional heart of learning, you know, why the Nuxalk are sharing about the four modern catastrophes, but then sharing all of this vitality and revitalisation and Nuxalk, ways of of of thinking about the world and about the future. 

01:23:16:08 – 01:23:37:21 

Jennifer 

And people get that and they sit there in front of the screen and they listen to the songs in Nuxalk, both old and new. And they they see the videos and they look at the treasures, and they are experiencing that emotionally. And I guess that’s what it comes down to for me is that connectivity through the heart of what it means to be human. 

01:23:37:21 – 01:23:38:13 

Jennifer 

​​​ Stl’mstaliwa [the full human experience  

01:23:38:14 – 01:24:07:0 

Clyde 

What I think, too, that, the way in which a museum, shows in a museum space, the way you’re going to show the treasures, is not how the treasures are traditionally used, and that how they’re seen. So trying to be able to find, you know, like the masks, for example, the masks are put away and they’re they’re only brought out when it’s time to dance them and then right after they’re put away. 

01:24:07:11 – 01:24:30:10 

Clyde 

So that specialness of being able to see it in that moment for a five minute, ten minute dance, to hear the story, the teaching, but also to see everything come together. You know, you have a you have the artists that made it. You have the, the, the, the dancer who dances it, you have the singers who have learned the song. 

01:24:30:12 – 01:25:12:05 

Clyde 

You know, you have the the teachers who’ve who’ve taught the choreography. All of those different people have come together at that moment to to be a part of that, that history, that legacy, which also then connects everyone all the way back to its original founder and everything that’s in between. When you have that experience in, in ceremony and in the potlatch and, you know, in the spaces like big houses or in our halls and the places that we do these ceremonies, that is, it’s very even for someone who’s not, say, cultural, right. 

01:25:12:07 – 01:25:33:22 

Clyde 

Doesn’t, you know, follow the or isn’t a cultural teacher or practitioner, but they show up and they witness this and, it’s it’s part of them. Right? They don’t have to be a teacher in it because they’re experiencing it, living it, and it’s guiding them to to what they want to achieve in their own personal experience, their own life. 

01:25:34:00 – 01:26:09:06 

Clyde 

So how do you know? That was one of the biggest things in my mind was how do we convey that same energy, that same spirit in the ceremonies, but at an exhibit? And so that’s where having the community come and be involved was super important. So in our opening ceremonies, right, we began with Nuxalk coming in first, using our songs and, and, our, our collective presence to sort of bless the space and, you know, put, put our, you know, put our name on that space. 

01:26:09:08 – 01:26:39:05 

Clyde 

And then later in the evening, to, to host, you know, in MOA and, to then show some of those dances, that you, you will see in the exhibit and, you know, the treasures in the exhibit. To show that they’ve continued. They still live, they’re still practised. And to be able to share that. I remember we went a little over because, you know, when, when, when you start the work, you have to you have to keep going until it’s finished. 

01:26:39:05 – 01:26:58:02 

Clyde 

Right. And, the security staff, you know, that was a big worry at the beginning was, okay, we got to be out at a certain time. Security staff were so like, they were pulled into it, right? That they’re like, oh, no, keep going, keep going. We don’t mind working late like so it was it was really neat to see that. 

01:26:58:02 – 01:27:38:15 

Clyde 

And I think that, that really that that made the whole experience, the whole project really come alive when the community came to be involved. Because now too the even though the exhibit’s only going to be up for a year, it’s going to live in the in the hearts and minds of, you know, those young people, you know, everyone that went to witness it is, even owned it a bit themselves, too, like speaking about the exhibit and, coming back home and telling what they saw and sharing on on their social media, their experience and things like that. 

01:27:38:15 – 01:28:18:20 

Clyde 

So there’s it’s almost would kind of be interesting to, to look at how much it affected, people, you know, how much, how moved they were by it and their own little stories that might have come out of it. All that potential, I guess. You know., that was, I was really fun to be able to do. So I hope that, through doing it that way, that we’ve also inspired, you know, museums to be part of that transfer and not fight it, not get stuck in, in tradition and in, you know, almost like dogma of, like how we’ve operated and run for so long, but being open to transform. 

01:28:18:20 – 01:28:41:08 

Clyde 

And I think that’s the neat thing about Indigenous cultures is it has a, a permanence, but it also has room to grow and to add and to transform, without forgetting your roots, without forgetting the path that’s been cleared for us to be able to have that transformation and then be added to that legacy, added to that. 

01:28:41:08 – 01:28:46:22 

Clyde 

​​​So I used added to that story. Yeah, I think that’s what we were able to accomplish here. 

01:28:46:21 – 01:28:53:21 

Oliver 

Amazing. Thank you so much Clyde, Jennifer, Emily, for your time in that phenomenal conversation.